• Savarkar met Shaukat Ali, the famous Muslim leader in Mumbai in November 1924. Their conversation is worth reading :
Shaukat Ali : “ Very good. You see, what is this Hindu and Muslim? With great effort we achieved Hindu Muslim unity. But, there is a danger that this Hindu Sanghatan movement will destroy that unity. We cannot face fellow Muslims. They say, ‘like Hindus we too will start Muslim Sanghatan.’ For the greater good of Hindusthan we must all consider as Hindis (Hindusthanis) and forget all petty differences. You are a great man who started war with the British. But, today you are trapped in Hindu Sanghatan. I was told that while you were in Ratnagiri you had sowed seeds of disaffection between Hindu and Muslim population of Sindh province. It is good that you are going to abandon that work.”
Savarkar: “What you say is quite right. But, I was waiting for an explanation from you.”
Shaukat Ali : “What explanation?”
Savarkar : “When are you going to abandon the Khilafat and ul Ulema movements?”
Shaukat Ali : (furiously) “In our country we have a third party, the British who have conquered us. Time has come to unite and defeat our common enemy. Instead, you have started this Hindu Sanghatan. What a pity! You see you Hindus have always been beaten by Muslims (in better terms, we have beaten you with shoes). Things are very different for Muslims and Hindus. You will only achieve independence if you co-operate with
Muslims etc, etc.”
Savarkar : (intervened and stopped the same old record) “ Listen, I cannot discuss politics with you. Time is being wasted unnecessarily. What you said about history contains two mistakes. First of all, history of Hindus has not started just a thousand years ago, may be Arabia’s history goes back only that long. Secondly, in the last thousand years we have been beaten, it is true. But it is equally true that we Hindus have more than revenged our defeats. From Attock in the north to Rameshawar in the south Marathas have beaten you in every battle. We had played king makers of the Kings of Delhi. So, forget the history. The main question is this – are you going to abandon Khilafat, Ulema and Tan Zin (Muslim Manhattan) movements? Answer that first. ”
Shaukat Ali: “But I told you that we have nothing hidden in the Khilafat movement. Hindus need not fear anything from that because it is being run under the leadership of a Hindu (i.e. Gandhi).”
Savarkar : “May be. If Khilafat is not harmful to Hindus because its leader is a Hindu then why should Hindu Sanghatan be harmful? That is also under being run under the leadership of another Hindu. You will say that because a Hindu leader was found for the Khilafat movement, Hindus believed in it, Hindu Sanghatan has not found a Muslim leader therefore Muslims do not trust it. I ask you this – Many Hindus have suffered for Khilafat, but they accepted the sufferings for the sake of Hindu Muslim unity. Hindu Saghatan is also for the same purpose i.e. Hindu Muslim unity, but no Muslim leader has come forward to lead that movement. Is that not an indication of your partiality? Out of gratitude for the support Hindus gave to Khilafat movement, Muslims should have sympathised with Hindu Sanghatan.”
“You say there is nothing hidden in the Khilafat movement. What have we hidden in the Hindu Sanghatan movement? We do not have secret associations. On the other hand it is well known that Agakhani Mission, Hasan Nizami mission and other Muslim organisations have open and secret sections. So, instead of advising them that everything should be openly done, why are you advising the organisers of Hindu Sanghatan?”
‘Time is getting on. A compromise can quickly be reached. Are you going to abandon Khilafat, Ulema and other activities? For the sake of national unity and to have a common political movement are you going to abandon what are purely sectarian Muslim religious organisations? If you do, I will abandon Hindu Sanghatan, I should not, but will do so for the sake of political unity.”
Shaukat Ali : “But it is our religious duty to preach Islam to Hindus. Suppose a Hindu boy comes to me this morning and says to me, ‘I saw God in my dreams and he told me to convert to Islam.’ I will say to him,’ There is a mosque, go inside and convert to Islam.’ In our activities, there is nothing more forcible than this.”
Savarkar : Let us assume that what you are saying is correct. But then that is precisely what we do. If a Muslim comes to me today and says, ‘I saw God in the dream and he asked to me to convert to Hindu Dharma.’ I will say to him, ‘Come, let us go to the temple in front of us and become a Hindu.’ That is our Shuddhi. Why should it come in the way of Hindu Muslim unity?
Shaukat Ali : “(angrily) O.K. you carry out your Shuddhi, we carry on with our conversion. Let us see who wins…. I tell you once again; at present there is unity among Muslims. Our movements of Khilafat, Ulema and Tanzin are under one command. Muslims will obey me and two of my companions. They will do what we tell them to do. I can assure you that I will do nothing to harm Hindus. So, why don’t you trust me and abandon Hindu Sanghatan? That makes Muslims very angry…..”
Savarkar : “The concept of unification of Hindusthan as one nation and propagation of its growth started in Maharashtra. It is disgraceful to condemn Maharashtra as being anti-national and that too by Muslims who despised even the Indian National Congress and who are obsessed with seeking special representation for Muslims.”
“You say that you are a leader of all Muslims and they have not disobeyed you and wiii never do so. Tell me, the atrocities committed by Moplas (1921), and those during the recent Muslim riots in Gulbarga and Kohat (1924); the destruction of Hindu temples and dishonouring of Hindu women – were they carried out with your consent? If they did, your apparent zeal of Hindu Musiim unity is totally deceptive. On the other hand, if those atrocities were committed despite of your appeal , it is absurd to say that those people are in your control. We Hindus cannot therefore rely on your word.”
Shaukat Ali : “But you see when I was imprisoned, people were disunited and confused and committed the atrocities.”
Savarkar : “Really? You were not in prison when riots took place in Gulbarga, Kohat and Delhi. Moreover, if your Muslim people become so disunited as soon as you are away and commit such terrible atrocities, how can we rely on your word? It is evident that they have inborn tendency to commit such barbarity at the slightest chance. Even if you are sincere, how can we rely on your guarantee? A time will come when both of us will be dead. Hindus will again face the same Muslims. This is a question of their perpetual safety and security. There is therefore no substitute for Hindu Sanghatan. Moreover it is not against any body.”
“Hasan Nizami, Agakhani, Khilafat and other movements are aggressive and harmful to Hindus. You do not want to stop these. They convert Hindus in large numbers openly and in secret. Your Urdu language newspapers openly vow to convert tens of millions of Hindus in five to ten years. And hundreds of Hindus are forcibly converted to Islam. Under such circumstances it is hypocritical and extremely partial to say to the Hindus, ‘You must not do Sanghatan even for self defence. That will harm Hindu Muslim unity.’ You stop your conversion activities and then the activities of Hindus to protect themselves will also cease.”
Shaukat Ali : “But you make Muslims most irritant by your activities. Muslims have been converting for centuries, why did you start your re-conversion recently? Does it not prove that it is anti-Muslim?”
Savarkar : “And who is to blame for that? Hindus never preached any one else to become a Hindu. Not only that they ignored monstrous attempts of forcible conversion by Muslims. Same Hindu people have to undertake Shuddhi today. Whose fault is that?”
“We left our back door open and trusted our neighbours. But they had been stealing all along. Now we have decided to shut the door and put a lock on it. And the thieves are telling us,’ we have been stealing for a long time. Why did you lock the door recently? It is against us (i.e. thieves). This will damage the unity between us. We say, ‘to the hell with such unity.’ You are saying, ‘what is yours is mine and mine remains mine. ‘The earlier such
unity breaks the better.”
“Christians, Parsis, Jews also organise. But they never object to Hindu organisation. Why should Muslims feel irritated? The reason is obvious. It affects their business of increasing their numerical strength. I asked you several times and I ask you finally, will you wind up Muslim organisations?”
Shaukat Ali : (with extreme anger) “I will never abandon Muslim organisations. There is nothing anti-Hindu in them.”
Savarkar : “In that case I too will not abandon Hindu Sanghatan. There is nothing anti-Musilm in it nor is there any anti Christian, or anti Parsi or anti-Jew in it.”
(S.S.V3 pp 758/765)
Extreme selfishness of Muslims is quite clear from above conversation.
Unfortunately, Hindu opponents of Savarkar refused take any notice.
